Author Topic: wich came first, turkey or the egg  (Read 21422 times)

Offline Greg Stahl

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2010, 07:26:05 AM »
Gotta know if a #7 Griswold lid fits this skillet.  It must.  

Does anyone have a #7 WAPAK like this and does a #7 Griswold lid fit it?
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Offline Clark Rader

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2010, 08:58:54 AM »
Flash, Flash, the New News. Went back to the junk yard, yea  ;) the one in the bottom part of my house. ;D . Updated the two gate marks are not gate marks, casting flaws that look like casting flaws that run in different directions.  :) So there I said it. About the side gate marks YES of course, In about 5? places, going out on the limb here again, could be that two were made at each casting. Cause two of them are smother and (I think) is showing grain on the grinding marks. What I am calling gate marks are grinding marks, hopping that is one in the same? 8-)The last time that I looked at this skillet was about two years ago.
Flash again a Wagner Ware #7 skillet cover(with ears) fits like a glove. # 7 I/M lid fits too tight, same with a #7 Griz. too tight also.
clark
9 5/8" without the ears.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 10:57:55 AM by paninhand »
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Offline Joel Schiff

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 05:47:49 PM »
 Dwayne was kind enough to give me a 'heads up'(my day being generally so screwed up that by the time I can get to the Forum, its gen. past even the 'wee hours')

 As Clark noted:
Quote
I put to the tape to the pan and it is 9 5/8", not counting the pour spouts and that could be a second series. I just assume that the first casting was a "ERIE" ?
 
I taped a #7 third series "erie" with pattern # ? And it read 9 3/4"
......

[& to Greg's question re. a #7 skillet cover as a 'filtering measure':]
Flash again a Wagner Ware #7 skillet cover(with ears) fits like a glove. # 7 I/M lid fits too tight, same with a #7 Griz. too tight also.
 

 My longtime prejudice has always been that the Patterns didn't get sold from Griswold to other co.s -- as if they were good enough to use, they were also good enough to make indefinite amounts of potentially competitive product.
 [& only to summarize my usual 'zombie horse' -- such patterns were not that hard to make; there were plenty with the skill to make them; & Griswold sometimes later used them to make 'marginally uncompetitive product for specific consigner's/co.s(eg. Majestic, Home Comfort etc)]

 But what Dave had earlier shown(re. Wapak molds -- which we now all know, & re. even the much better quality Piqua ones with 'ghosts'), which is also what Clark has measured, & Greg's(Clark administered) 'skillet lid' test has also shown -- is that Clark's 2'ghost' + final inscription pan is significantly smaller than a #7 Erie skillet.
 Despite the theoretical variability is each co.s casting process -- which I don't believe to be actually significantly & characteristically different -- if the succession was cast from the same original(sold/transferred) pattern, the sizes should be essentially the same -- which they aren't.

 So what we seem to have is a series of 'knockoffs' -- with the skillet shrinking a little each time -- from 9 3/4"d -> 9 5/8"d(as per Clark's measurements).
 Using each skillet as the Pattern for the next in succession, thus both accounts for the shrinkage, & also eliminates the considerations re. 3 Pattern transfers.  What's amazing in this is that the 'ghosts' so get so faithfully transferred, & also(however they we thought they were produced) that each successive company doesn't seem to have cared.

 Super neat to have 2 'ghosts'!  Does anyone have a pan with 3(3 'ghosts' + the 'designated co.' inscription)?
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Offline Dwayne Henson

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 07:46:46 PM »
This skillet has raised some questions in my small mind.  :)  First off; does anyone else have, seen or heard of another pan like this one or is this a one-of-a-kind skillet? I'm thinking about that bottom gated ERIE that is listed in the Blue Book, there are so many of those ERIE's that someone had to cast a run of them.  I guess what I'm wondering is this a one of kind skillet that some bored worker made or are there others as in someone made a run of them?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 07:51:02 PM by ddaa99 »
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Offline Clark Rader

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 08:10:59 PM »
Quote
This skillet has raised some questions in my small mind.  :)  First off; does anyone else have, seen or heard of another pan like this one or is this a one-of-a-kind skillet? I'm thinking about that bottom gated ERIE that is listed in the Blue Book, there are so many of those ERIE's that someone had to cast a run of them.  I guess what I'm wondering is this a one of kind skillet that some bored worker made or are there others as in someone made a run of them?
Dwayne I got this sk. in PA, right before I went to the Erie convention, than show and tell. Somebody else had this same skilet. Without the (J) on the handle. So two of a kind, but don't know what that means? :o Yes two of a kind.
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Offline Dwayne Henson

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 08:28:04 PM »
Thanks Clark, does Wapak ususally have a letter on the handle?
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Offline Dwayne Henson

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2010, 08:35:40 PM »
I have to ask how do you get a double ghost on a skillet? I can see if you use an erie skillet as a master you could have an erie ghost on the pattern and therefore an erie ghost on the newly cast skillet. But once you have a pattern with for example an erie ghost on it how do you get the wagner ghost on it as well?
Signed Confused :-[
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Offline Jeff Seago

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2010, 09:00:59 PM »
Dwayne from what I understand Griswold owned the pattern first and sold it to Wagner then Wagner must have passed it on to Wapak?

Offline Roger Barfield

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2010, 09:39:10 PM »
Quote
Dwayne from what I understand Griswold owned the pattern first and sold it to Wagner then Wagner must have passed it on to Wapak?


Jeff, that's one possibility, but I don't buy it.  I don't believe those foundries at that time were so willing to sell patterns to their direct competition.  Why do anything to help your competition sell more products and make more money to compete with you.  Some people do believe it, but I don't.   I bet you that someone used an Erie to make a pattern producing the first ghost mark and that pan was used by the other foundry to make the pattern that produced the pan with two ghost marks.   These skillets aren't patented, so what was to keep them from copying it and putting their name on it.  You can see this today with foreign made pieces that look very similar in design to Lodge skillets and BSR pieces.  
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Offline Dwayne Henson

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2010, 10:03:47 PM »
I have never seen it, or heard about one, but has anybody ever seen an ERIE with a Wagner ghostmark, or a Wagner with an Erie ghostmark? And why is the Wapak skillet smaller than the Erie skillet if the same pattern is used?



« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 12:03:47 AM by ddaa99 »
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Offline Clark Rader

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2010, 07:33:57 AM »
            Erie second or third sk. has this reinforcing pad
1889 to1892 ------- 1892 to 1905

the only Wagner with a reinforcing pad (in the book) is;
    1910 to1930

No Wapak (in the book) that has a reinforcing pad.

What does all that meam? ;D
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Offline Dwayne Henson

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2010, 10:15:05 AM »
Clark to further confuse, I think that Wagner looks more like the "Wagner" (arc) Sidney O c. 1900-1915 to me. It has the Wagner arc as your skillet does and that straight smear on your skillet under the Wagner could be where the straight Sidney would of been if not covered.   ::)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 10:16:14 AM by ddaa99 »
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Offline C. Perry Rapier

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2010, 10:44:28 AM »
I find this thread interesting, and I can see it is to others as well.

I would like to say this. I am of the opinion that patterns were sold by one manufacturer to another. In response to Rogers post, that why should one manufacturer sell its old patterns, which would obviously help its competition. Well, businesses help each other all the time. There are more business associations than you can shake a stick at, then and now. The National Stove Manufacturers Association is a perfect example. They belonged to it to promote the Industry. Of course they were in competition with each other.

But, lets look at the competition between Griswold and Wapak. It was a David and Goliath. Griswold had been in business for many years when Wapak started. Griswold was already an established name, in the World Market, when Wapak started. Wapak was just a little bitty place in comparison to Griswold, and hence posed no real threat to Griswolds bottom line, so why wouldn't Griswold sell them their patterns. It wasn't like Wapak was gonna put Griswold out of business by making Hollow Ware with Griswolds old patterns.

Patterns were hard to come by, they were expensive, pattern makers made good money, in comparison to the rest of the workers in a foundry, so if a foundry could get its patterns on the cheap, why not, that was good business, and for Griswold, why should they throw money away by destroying their old patterns. In my opinion, it was just good business all the way around.

I say this of course not to be argumentative, but just expressing my opinion. I think the manufacturers were more cozy with each other than we might otherwise be led to believe.

Offline Roger Barfield

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2010, 11:00:27 AM »
Morning Perry, we may never know the answer, but it makes for great conversation.  ;)  Also, there is another possibility.  There were also pattern makers who made patterns for many foundries.  I don't know if Griswold used one or had theirs made in house.  A pattern maker could potentially modify his master pattern and sell it to more than one foundry.  This would explain multiple pieces all the same size and with multiple marks, but I would suspect he would be able to cover up the names better than what we see above.  
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Offline Mark Ritter

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2010, 11:00:50 AM »
Your opinion sounds good to me. I'm not saying that it is right but it does make good sense.  :)

Offline Dwayne Henson

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2010, 12:05:48 PM »
 If the ghostmarked skillets are smaller than the originals, then you have to look for an explaination why?

There are known examples of patterns being given to other foundries and those item match the originals. Sidney, (after Wagner bought them),  and Wagner gave skillet patterns back and forth, and those ghostmarked items are the same size. They are not smaller. When BS&R had Lodge casting their CI, the Lodge pieces are indistinguishable from the older BS&R pieces. When Griswold got combined with Wagner, Wagner used Griswold's patterns to make Camp Ovens and the resulting Camp Ovens match the older Griswold, The Wagner copies were not smaller than the original Griswolds. To me that is the main question; Why on known pattern swaps there is no shrinkage in the final product, but on these questionable pattern swaps/ghostmarks there is shrinkage?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 12:24:32 PM by ddaa99 »
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Offline C. Perry Rapier

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2010, 12:57:49 PM »
Quote
If the ghostmarked skillets are smaller than the originals, then you have to look for an explaination why?

To me that is the main question; Why on known pattern swaps there is no shrinkage in the final product, but on these questionable pattern swaps/ghostmarks there is shrinkage?

Dwayne, that is a fair question, and a good one. And I don't have the answer, but I can speculate. I would say that there is not doubt about it, that skillets were used as patterns to make skillets, as well as other pieces of cast iron used in the same manner too. And that we have seen them from time to time and have readily recognized, because of their imperfections.

But I would suggest that there are too many nice pieces out there, with ghost marks, from different manufacturers, which says to me, that the odds are in favor of the original patterns being used/modified, to produce these pieces, rather than suggesting that manufacturers themselves used pieces as patterns, but clearly there were instances where the pieces themselves were used as patterns. An instance of a piece being smaller than another, to me, is a lone isolated instance, rather than proof that it was done wholesale by manufacturers.

Lastly, in my opinion, there are enough piece, based upon what I have seen, to strongly suggest otherwise.  :)


I wish Steve Stephens were here, SURELY, this thread would go 150 posts with him.  :D

Offline Dwayne Henson

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2010, 02:02:27 PM »
Hey Perry:
I spent to much time in the lab. In my mind if A+B=C, then when A+B=D comes up I want to know why. What variables changed, why, and how.

I do believe that Clark's skillet was made from patterns made from skillets, not from a bought pattern for two reasons.
 First, The size is smaller than an Erie skillet.
Second I have never seen or heard about an Erie ghostmark on a Wagner. (I'm not talking about the newer stuff when Wagner and Griswold were combined), or any evidence that Wagner did not make/use their own patterns. Wagner was recognized as a leader in cast iron cookware. Look at some of the awards Wagner won, page 230 in the Blue Book and at the dates. These are US and International Medals for excellence during this time frame. If Wagner was buying their patterns from Griswold would they have won those awards? In my way of thinking Griswold would have come out with the truth, that it was Griswold's designs and patterns that made Wagner excellent, so come buy all your patterns from Griswold. So I reject the idea that Wagner bought patterns from Griswold, unless other evidence comes to light.

An observation from a PM from Joel, that kinda opened my eyes. I hope he writes some more on this forum. The area that ghostmarks are found from. I nor Joel have ever seen or heard about an ERIE ghostmark on any southern foundry; Lodge, BS&R, Martin, or King skillets. Why? Joel discribed it as a business cone of influence that Griswold had. The ghostmarks are found from foundries within Griswold's sphere of influence. The foundries that had ghostmarks were in competition with Griswolds quality. The southern foundries were not in competition with Griswold and they have no ghostmarks. Interesting. I can know see why Joel and Steve found these older copies of Griswold's interesting. It has been a fun discussion.
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Offline Jeff Seago

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2010, 02:37:11 PM »
Dwayne how do you explain the ERIE and WAGNER ghost marks on Clark's skillet??  In my mind that can only mean on thing and that is Erie then Wagner then finally Wapak.  I don't have my books real handy but I would speculate that the lower position arched Wagner came long after the Erie skillets.  Griswold had moved on to bigger and better things by this point and had no need for some of there Erie patterns any longer and thus why could they not have sold them.  There technology had advanced and it would keep there competition one step behind them??

Great Thread!!!

Offline C. Perry Rapier

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Re: wich came first, turkey or the egg
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2010, 03:14:13 PM »
Quote

An observation from a PM from Joel, that kinda opened my eyes. I hope he writes some more on this forum. The area that ghostmarks are found from. I nor Joel have ever seen or heard about an ERIE ghostmark on any southern foundry; Lodge, BS&R, Martin, or King skillets. Why? Joel discribed it as a business cone of influence that Griswold had. The ghostmarks are found from foundries within Griswold's sphere of influence. The foundries that had ghostmarks were in competition with Griswolds quality. The southern foundries were not in competition with Griswold and they have no ghostmarks. Interesting. I can know see why Joel and Steve found these older copies of Griswold's interesting. It has been a fun discussion.

Dwayne, while you mention Wagner, I refuse to believe that these foundries DID NOT buy these patterns from each other. All I am saying is that in my opinion there is more evidence to support that foundries did buy patterns from each other, than evidence to support that they did not buy patterns from each other. There needs to be more proof for me, just like there needs to be more proof for you. And the fact that there are a few skillets that are smaller than each other is not proof enough to decide the issue one way or another.

The Eagle Stove Works from Rome, Georgia made a skillet, and its got Griswold Ghost Marks on it, and its from the South.