Author Topic: Who made this Stick Pan?  (Read 11644 times)

Jake_Benner

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Who made this Stick Pan?
« on: February 15, 2003, 10:11:58 AM »
I've got a pic of a stick pan that I've never seen before and I'm confused about its origin.  If you let me know where to send the pic to post it, someone might be able to figure it out.

By the way, I'm new to collecting Griswold and my focus has become stick and gem pans.  I don't have many yet, but I'm really enjoying the hunt.

Thanks,

Jake :)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2003, 10:58:05 AM by admin »

Offline Greg Stahl

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2003, 10:37:11 AM »
email the pix to me

I see that you are in Brookline, neighbor!  I work at Brigham and Women's Hospital.

welcome to the WAGS site.  You'll enjoy the folks on here.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2003, 10:39:05 AM by admin »
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Offline Harry Riva

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2003, 11:40:47 AM »
Jake, Looks like you have a Wagner corn stick pan and according to the info in the blue book it was made in the 40's. I would suggest buying the Blue and Red books on Griswold, Wagner, and others. They are a good, quick way of getting up the curve on a lot of cast iron. You can get them for Greg, the webmaster of this site.
Harry

Jake_Benner

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2003, 12:20:01 PM »
THanks for the info, Harry.  I suspected it might be a Wagner.  I forgot to mention that the inside of the pan is the wheat pattern, not corn, which is why I was confused to not see "corn or wheat" on the back.  Any idea on relative value/rarity among other Wagner pans?  I'd like to know if this would be of interest to others who collect Wagner.  I'm sticking to Griswold pans for now.

Jake

Offline Harry Riva

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2003, 04:15:26 PM »
They are not rare and they show up on e-bay every month or so. I don't know what they bring on e-bay since I don't pay attention to them as I already have several. I'm into mine for about $35 each and that was kind of the going price when I bought mine.

Harry

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2003, 04:37:23 PM »
I have argued at length with people about these pans.  They are NOT Wager.  No catalog number; no constant "letter" like Wagner marked their pans prior to using catalog numbers on the pan.   The pan does not show up in any Wagner catalog that I am aware of.  The pan HAS to be newer than the Griswold ones since Griswold had a patent on the design that was issued in 1927 (filed for in 1925).  

Those stick pans appear with no letter on the back, with the letters B and E and possibly one other letter.  An earlier version with the same marking but no letter has just 6 sticks.  There is absolutely nothing about the pan that says Wagner and I'll argue that until someone PROVES to me that it is Wagner.

Goes to show, if you believe me, that what is printed in books is not always right.  But, once printed, it tends to become fact.  I am on a mission to set the record straight and to encourage people to use their eyes and minds to determine if what they read in print is the truth.  Authors do not give enough documentation, proof, or captions to validate what they say.

On the G&CICA Griswold History page it says "The closest I can get to the date they started making cookware is 1865".   The date was several years later a few weeks ago when I emailed the webmaster Kathy and asked her where she got the info.  She replied that it was a type and that it should have been 1865.

I was under the strong impression that Griswold started in 1865 but they made hardware items such as a separable butt hinge.  Cookware came much later and my guess it around 1880.  By 1883 at least Selden & Griswold had a full line of cookware from a little 1883 catalog sheet I have.  When did they ACTUALLY start making cookware?  I don't know but I bet it wasn't even close to 1865.  Yet that is the date written in infamy on the G&CICA site.   People who write things need to give a reference on where they found the information or history gets screwed up for all time.

I am always questioning things but am absolutely willing to listen to reason if other ideas come up.  The hard information on what we want to know in our hobby just isn't readily available and probably will never be available.  We have to guess and deduce a lot but, please, say it is a guess or estimate.

And Jake, be sure to get Griswold Muffin Pans by Haussler.  A great book with too high prices for today's market but an excellent book anyway.  Good luck on your hunt.  Muffin pans are some of the most interesting pieces to collect.  I was doing that for years and still have some really neat ones.
Steve

John_Myers

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2003, 06:01:27 PM »
I agree with you Steve NOT Wagner. I don't know a Wagner collector that thinks that it is.  John

PS  Not Wager either.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2003, 06:07:47 PM by John_Myers »

Offline Harry Riva

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2003, 12:04:14 AM »
Jake, I guess I should have said "according to the Blue Book you have a Wagner pan". Steve S. sure knows a lot about this stuff and if he says it isn't so that's probably the case.
Harry

Jake_Benner

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2003, 11:23:04 AM »
Well, this sure stirred up some interesting dialogue.  I suppose for now there is no consensus on the maker of this stick pan, but its resemblance to the Griswold 2700 is striking.  Could it have been a piece from the Puritan or another line of ware that was branded for someone else?

Thanks for the info everybody!

Jake

Offline Jerry Cermack

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2003, 11:45:33 AM »
Steve,
please unconfuse me....I had one of these pans and it had a letter B on the middle cup like in the blue cover book.....was it Wagner in your opinion?

Have items shown up that are genuine Griswold or Wagner that were not in any catalogs?
Jerry

Shearylon

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2003, 10:17:56 PM »
Steve,
Could you tell me if any of your catalogs show the Griswold pup in them? Thanksssssss :) ;D

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2003, 11:38:34 PM »
To answer the last three posts:

Shearylon:  That wheat stick pan is a regular production cookware item and was made in fairly large numbers judging by the number of them I have seen.  The Griswold Pup was a limited, non-cookware item GIVEN away by Griswold or, possibly, SOLD to jobbers to do with what they wanted.  I don't believe that it was a production item and, as such, would probably not be included in the G catalog.  I know what you are inferring.  That wheat stick pan is NOT Wagner.  Prove it to me that I am wrong.  Show me some reasonable arguments.  I am listening.  

Jerry:  Those pans come with no letter, the letter B, the letter E and, I think someone pointed out to me, another letter.  Wagner used the letter B for their popover pans.  Wagner used the letter E for their cornstick pans.  Wagner lettered or cataloged numbered all their later gem type pans.  Wager did not use different letters for any of their identical pans.  That wheatstick pan comes in a 6-stick version which I presume to be earlier.  Again, due to the number of these pans I have had and seen they were produced in large numbers and probably over a several year or many year period.  As such it SEEMS that, if Wagner, they would appear in a Wagner catalog.  Maybe nobody has seen a Wagner catalog from the period that these pans were made.  I, personally, am highly convinced that they are not Wagner.  Give me ANY logical reason why they are other than the blue book shows the pan under the Wagner section.  The book  (see p. 263, top, right) does not say that the pan is Wagner, only that the B is characteristic of Wagner (but only for their popover pan) and the two holes in the handles are also characteristic.  Big, deal, any foundry would have put in no hole, or one hole, or two holes.  The number of holes is not a way to tell who made a pan.  That pan is NOT Wagner.

Jake:  That pan does resemble the Griswold 2700 pan.  If you compare it to the 2700 (have you ever done so in person?  I have), you will see that the detailing is different, the casting quality is different,  the handles are  similiar but not the same, the wheat patterns are not the same (detail-wise); but the Puritan
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3200909911
and Merit wheat pans by Griswold made for Sears were not the same in details or handles, either.   ALL Griswold cookware items from c. 1892 to 1957 had pattern numbers on them but that wheat pan doesn't, nor are the markings or printstyle what Griswold used (except for, possibly c.1880-1900 but I doubt that this pan is that old and there are Griswold catalogs from that period and they do not show that pan).  Well, almost all Griswold pieces have a p/n;  the Cliff Cornell skillets did not have them but they were special items made for Cliff Cornell to give his employees.  Cliff was a friend of some main person at the Griswold foundry.  That wheat stick pan is NOT Wagner.  Repeat; NOT Wagner.  Now, I would not bet my life on what I have said but I am VERY convinced.  PLEASE, anyone with some good information that is compelling and might change my mind, let me hear from you.  My mind is open to new information but it must MAKE SENSE.  None of the arguments so far to connect this pan with Wagner make sense to me.

Steve
« Last Edit: February 17, 2003, 02:01:13 PM by Steve_Stephens »

Shearylon

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2003, 05:25:34 PM »
Steve ,  I wasnt inferring anything...I didnt ask about the wheat pan...I collect griswold and lots of pups
.  I was just curious if the pups were in the catalogs and since you have lots of catalogs , I thought you could answer my question..... :o

Offline Jerry Cermack

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2003, 05:36:21 PM »
Steve,
I have no expertise, or thoughts, on whether that pan is Griswold? Wagner?...or anyone elses?...I surely didnt think my post was a challenge to your opinion about those pans....I just simply asked for your opinion.....forgive me but I just got confused reading your post about letters and such on Wagner.  .

And I was also just curious about any Griswold or Wagner items to your knowledge that was produced but not in their catalogs?.....I do not have any catalog library to research from.....

I did have one pan that I sent a picture to Dave Smith and he said it was Griswold but wasnt in any of his catalogs?....so that has always made me curious if there are any others the experts think are Griswold or Wagner and not in a catalog?
Jerry

Offline Jerry Cermack

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2003, 05:39:51 PM »
Steve,
Along the lines of what you were saying about when Griswold started producing?....is this item referring to Griswold Co ?....the cookware co?.....or some other Griswold Co.?....I have no idea?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3207707920&category=976
Jerry

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2003, 06:08:02 PM »
OK Steve, you don't have to be so emphatic!!.  Sorry guys and gals; didn't mean to be so hard on you and I was mistaken, Shearylon, on what I thought you were inferring.  Jerry, I didn't take your post as a challenge.   My apologies to you all for coming across rather hard headed.  I find that some people really believe that the wheat stick pan mentioned is Wagner because it is shown in the blue book.  I've made my arguments against it being so in Dave's newsletter in the past.

Yes, there are quite a few of Griswold, Wagner, and other makers' items that do not show up in catalogs.  But, because nobody seems to have a fairly complete set of catalogs, that isn't surprising.

For the pieces that do not show up was it because they were made for such a short time?  Or, were some made in small numbers or short lived production items that were shown to dealers in special flyers?  I don't think anyone has these answers.
It would be interesting to list all those pieces of Griswold, for instance, that do not show up in any known catalog.  I wonder how many it would be?

In the case of the Wagner gem style pans I think most or all are shown in the catalogs that have been reprinted or are otherwise somewhat available.  But not all variations, by far, are shown in the available catalogs.  Jerry, what was the pan you sent the photo to Dave of that isn't in the catalogs?

Not sure where I lost you Jerry on the letters on wagner pieces.  Let me know if I can clarify things more.

Steve

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2003, 06:12:52 PM »
Quote
Steve,
Along the lines of what you were saying about when Griswold started producing?....is this item referring to Griswold Co ?....the cookware co?.....or some other Griswold Co.?....I have no idea?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3207707920&category=976

Jerry,
I was referring to Selden & Griswold regarding the first date of them making iron cookware.  I could also say Griswold because S&G is really the same company.

The egg separator in the link in your last post is not a product of nor connected with OUR Griswold Mfg. Co.  I'm not sure where the company is located or what they made but Dave has, I think, some of the story.  I know that the separator is in some of the books on Griswold but new information has come to light removing it from being a Griswold Mfg. Co. (or S&G) of Erie, PA.  There are quite a number of different Griswold companies around the country.

Steve

Offline Greg Stahl

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2003, 06:17:46 PM »
Actually isn't the credit for making the egg thingy not a Griswold item given to Harry Riva??  I seem to remember an article where he made a strong argument that the dates are not of any importance for any anniversary.  Right Harry?
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Offline Jerry Cermack

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2003, 06:18:25 PM »
Steve,
The pan I had is shown in Jon Hausslers book as the first variation of the #31 Danish pan....it only had the 963 on it in the old script hand style letters.....that was before I saw it in a Haussler book.   I sent a picture of it to Dave....he said he couldnt find it in any of his catalogs.
Jerry

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Who made this Stick Pan?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2003, 06:36:18 PM »
Jerry,
That's a strange handle on the variation 1 No.31 pan.  But the catalogs usually do not show exact photographs of items that would show specific details of different variations.   And, where is that loop handled No.19 pan shown in the catalogs?  Would be great to find just one if not a pair.  Maybe they never even made it.  And what about the No.28 single loaf bread pan?  You would think that at least ONE would have shown up by now if they made any.

You are probably right Greg, about Harry Riva coming up with the separator info.  Maybe I was thinking something was mentioned in Kettles 'n Cookware.
Steve