Grooved Handle Skillets Question

[CharlesCowdrick]

When were the grooved handle (Small TM) Skillets made?
I'm a bit confused by the various skillet types, such as early handle, late handle, grooved handle.
Can anyone point me to an online source that gives dates for these distinctions?
Thanks!
Charles

[Steve_Stephens]

Charles,
I understand your confusion.  I don't know exactly when each handle style was made but can come up with a close guess.

There are three different handles used on regular Griswold skillets.  Actually there are four but I have seen only one of the fourth variation in 30+ years so let's say three for reality's sake.
Early handle would be like those used on many of the large, block TM pans.   The handle cutout has a teardrop shape and comes to a point at the small end of the teardrop.
Late handle comes in two variations (as far as I am concerned).  Those that are not grooved (the earlier of the late handle) and the grooved handle which is the later of the late handles.  For the purpost of "late" and "early" I only separate the shapes of the two handles with the two "late" handles having the hole in the handle with a radius at both ends.

Dates:  Early was c.1939 up to WWII or maybe until just after WWII.  Late handle came in right after so it's probably post WWII and was used until the late grooved handle came out which, who knows, might have been in the earlier or mid 1950's.

It might be confusing to see the 'late' handle preceeding the "grooved' handle in the blue book when the grooved handle was later than the late handle.  Both handles are actually of the late style and come in the two variations.
Is that all clear?

Dating in the blue and red books is confusing and, I would say, inaccurate since the same "c.1944-57" dates are given for both the 'late' handle and the "grooved" handle.  Griswold did not mix production of their popular regular skillets I don't think and would have made one style and then quickly changed over to the other (grooved) style.  Might the changes in handles come with changes in ownership and/or managers?  I see that as a good possibility.  I don't know where the c.1944 date came from and if it's accurate or not.

Recap:  sm. TM skillets have either the early or the late handle with the late handle coming in the non-grooved or grooved version.  Hope I've gotten this all right.  I don't know any other online source for the dates and, if there is one, I would be very careful in believing what you see.  There is a lot of misinformation out there especially on ebay.

Steve

[awdye]

Hi Charles,

I'm not aware of any online sources for this. I'm assuming you're referring to Griswold with your question.  The best source is the Blue Book, "The Book of Griswold & Wagner" 4th edition by Smith and Wafford.  Let me just quickly summarize from the book:

The 1st small logo skillets (referred to as the 'early handle') were from 1939-44 and were sizes 3,5,6,7,8,9,10 with smooth bottoms, and a #12 with a heat ring. an example can be found at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Griswold-Cast-Iron-704-skillet_W0QQitemZ6197711951QQcategoryZ976QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The 2nd small logo skillets (referred to as the 'late handle') were cast from 1944-57 and were sizes 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 with smooth bottoms. an example can be seen at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Griswold-Erie-Pa-3-Cast-Iron-Skillet-709I-Pan_W0QQitemZ6199108056QQcategoryZ976QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The 3rd small logo skillets (referred to as the 'grooved handle') were also cast from 1944-57 and came in sizes 3-10 in smooth bottoms.  an example can be seen at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/GRISWOLD-NO-5-ERIE-PA-724-M-LITTLE-SKILLET-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ6199587572QQcategoryZ976QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The 4th small logo skillets (referred to as the 'hinged tab') were cast from 1940's-1957 and came in sizes 3,5,6,7,8,9 with smooth bottoms. an example can be seen at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/5-Griswold-Double-Skillet-Bottom-2505_W0QQitemZ6198472649QQcategoryZ3631QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Regards,

Alan

[Steve_Stephens]

The 3rd small logo skillets (referred to as the 'grooved handle') were also cast from 1944-57

I do think that is erroroneus information given in the blue and red books (see my post above).  It's very unlkely that both the late ungrooved handle and the late grooved handle were produced at the same time except for, possibly, a very short changeover period.

Steve

[awdye]

Take a look at this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/GRISWOLD-5-CAST-IRON-SKILLET-8-INCH_W0QQitemZ6199154919QQcategoryZ976QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If I'm guessing correctly, I'd say this is a griswold skillet produced after their sale to Wagner.  I'm guessing based on the fact that the "erie" marking is missing and it has an inches mark on it.

Note the handle, it looks to be close to the late handle.

The early handle and the tab handle have teardrop shaped holes.  The groove handle and the late handle have oval holes.  The tab handle and the late handle have the same bevel leading up to the hole.  The late handle and the groove handle have the same rounded top.

(warning, wild guess coming up!)

If I had to guess at the which came first, I'd put them in the following order based on the above evidence:

early handle, hinge tab handle, groove handle, late handle, then sold the company and the molds.

Reasoning goes like this, starting with the early handle.  first they changed the bevel on the handle for the tabbed skillets but left the hole the same. Then they changed to a different handle (grooved) which incorporated a new hole and a rounder top of the handle, but after a while maybe found they had increased casting defects due to the narrower flow path in the mold with the grooved handle design, so they changed the handle again to the late handle to widen the flow path in the mold, but kept the hole the same shape and the rounder top.  Then that same handle continued on the skillets after the sale to wagner.

They probably derived the original early handle design from their Victor line or their large block smooth bottom line, as the late Victor castings and large block smooth bottoms have a handle that looks a lot like the early small logo handles.

Of course it's all conjecture.  

[awdye]

While we're fiddling with this topic, I'll ask this.  I'm just examining a grooved handled skillet in my yard sale box here.  It almost looks like an early attempt at ergonomics engineering. smoother sides, rounder top, wider hole, and the groove was maybe to improve grip or increase heat diffusion.  You don't suppose they were trying to create some sort of comfort handle late in the game as a way of differentiating their product do you?

[awdye]

One more difference, the font for the numeral on top of the handle.  I've got a few #5's here.  The large logo smooth bottom #5 has the same font as the early handle for the #5 on top of the handle.  From the pictures on e-bay that I can see, the same font is on the tab skillets.  The font for the #5 on the groove handle is smaller, almost 1/3 smaller.  Now if I just had a clear picture of the number on top of the handle of a late handle #5, we'd be able to test my earlier hypothesis further.

[Steve_Stephens]

Alan,  I think comfort and/or style may have been the reason for the new handle.  And the groove might have been to make the pan lighter, save iron or make the skillets stack better.  Having a pile of similiar and different skillets can be helpful in seeing differences like the typeface of the number on handle.

I mentioned a fourth handle on the small TM skillets.  It may have been a prototype for the late handle.  It was on a No.3 I had and there is no way is was modified from either an early or late handle skillet.  It wasn't so different that it stood out right away but it was distinct in several ways.  Wish I still had it.

Steve

[CharlesCowdrick]

I have to say that I'm overwhelmed by the knowledge and specificity of your responses! Thank you both. I'll be visiting the sites mentioned and keep watch. I have a purple book and a blue book, but not THE blue book you mention, so I'll hunt one down.

[Roger Barfield]

Charles, click on links up above and then click the second one listed and that is Greg, the webmaster's site.  He has them for sale, as well as the Pan Man, who is the author of the book.  It and the "red" book are the best references I have found.

[gt]

Does anyone remember some nice handle pictures posted maybe 6 months ago?  I thought Marty or someone made a sticky of them but I can't find them.  Also, there was a sticky of Steve's explanation of the early ERIE skillets but I can't find that either.

Thanks Gary