Did I Pay Too Much?

[Chris Stairs]

I have wanted a really BIG skillet ever since I started cooking in cast iron. I have a Wagner  #10, A National  #8,and 2 others that are "'unmarked" Wagners from the 60's, a #6 and a 'skillet Griddle".
I thought I might find a #14 unmarked Wagner for a good price on Ebay , but they always went too high.
Today I bought this;  
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220287307367
For this price I don't expect it to be highly collectible, but I am hoping it will make a good cooker.
Any info on American Brass and Iron would be appreciated. I suspect late 60's manufacture.
The picture I have attached came from a Google search.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/cookware/msg0900475424393.html

Chris

[Ron_Wheeler]

Hi Chris,  Read your google search link and I agree with the sheepherder post.  American Brass and Iron is located in Oakland, CA and is still in business today although they are currently not making cast iron cookware.  The pans with the americana scenes on the bottom were made in the 1960's or 70's to the best of my knowledge.  The pans are not considered highly collectible by collectors today but may be in the future.  Your #15 pan is not all that common, because of size, so you did okay with your purchase price.  I see more size 6 and 8 than any other size by AB&I.  As for the comments about AB&I using recycled meterials in their cookware I would have to disagree.  I don't know this as absolute but by being a California native, familiar with that company and products, and knowing our past and current enviromental laws in California, I think those pans were made from virgin ore and are completely safe.

The reason AB&I stopped making cast iron cookware was the same as why other cast iron cookware foundries stopped - the market went to hell due to all the "modern" cookware that came on the market in the 60's - 80's.  I would be interested in what AB&I says assuming they get back to you.

[Flora Chow]

Hi Ron,

Has this issue of food safety been addressed elsewhere in this society (I do not get to see all the pages)?  It seems that I am reading two singular opinions -- that of the sheepherder and yours.  The sheepherder implied an awareness of questions on China imports.  I looked a bit into FDA's site, and did not see anything on potential contaminents in cast iron cookware.  While sheepherder noted oil among the recycled parts, I am more concerned about lead and cadmium.

As a precaution, on a page somewhere in this society, maybe a note on:
-  here is what we know on history of foundry and general practice
-  different opinions regarding potential contaminents
-  no compositional studies (???)
-  may be prudent not to use AB&I cast iron as cookware

Flora

[Chris Stairs]

  I want to thank you both for your interesting replies. I am not all that concerned myself. I figure if the pan is well seasoned, and I am getting no metalic taste, then it really shouldn't matter. If however I die of piosoning, I will immediately stop using the skillet.
  I have a glasstop stove and it sits perfectly flat, but I am not going to use it on the stovetop anyway.  I am worried that it may crack due to being so much bigger than the burner. This is my new pizza skillet.

chris

[Charlee]

 If however I die of piosoning, I will immediately stop using the skillet.
  

I think that's an EXCELLENT plan Chris!!  No sense pushing your luck there, eh? ;D ;D ;D

[Ron_Wheeler]

Chris, Waking up dead is a terrible way to die, I think you should send that skillet to me.  I'm old so if it kills me it won't matter  ;D

Flora,  To the best of my knowledge our FDA does not have any say in what China produces.  :-/  If you examine what modern motor oil and greases contain you might be surprised at the additives.  Chinese and other countries imports to the USA have been discussed on the members side quite frequently.  Most members agree they won't and don't use it for various reasons.  As for using AB&I cookware, I think I stated it above, I don't see a problem.  :)

[Flora Chow]

Ron,

Yes, it is true:  FDA does not have any say in what China produces.  FDA, however, does not have any say in what U.S. produces, except for "products" under FFDCA (and other statutes).

FFDCA gives FDA authority to look at cookware (and paper plates, pizza boxes, cereal bags, etc.) for "food additives", whether of domestic or foreign origin.  Such food additives are chemicals that migrate from cookware into food.  It is in this context that FDA has looked at the perfluorochemicals and bisphenol A.

I do not know whether FDA has considered non-GRAS additives from use of iron cookware.  Separately, some of FDA's conclusions are not reasurring...

Flora

[Chris Stairs]

Flora,

           Most of the meat people eat in Canada and in the US is raised in awful factory "farms". The animals are so crowded and stressed that they are prone to sickness, so they are fed a steady diet of antibiotics to prevent this. Growth hormones to increase profits and reduce turnover times. Their feed is also scary. Things once thought of as waste are used. Cow bones from the slaughter house are ground up and fed to chickens. The chicken manure still contains many nutrients, and is mixed in small quantities with the feed for the cattle. The blood from the slaughter house is dried and used in formula for the young calves. Even the grain is probably genetically modified, and fertilized with petroleum by products, as is the grain that we eat. Food additives is a whole separate and equally scary topic. I wouldn't count on the FDA to have your back.
  I'm lucky to live in a rural area, so I can buy my eggs from a small farm on my commute to work. Every day I drive by,I can see those chickens out in the sun, scratching in the dirt and eating bugs. In season produce from the farm market is good too,the local Mennonites turn out some good meat too. There a small local mill which produces organic flour products. http://www.speervilleflourmill.ca  
  I do all my cooking in cast iron and Revere Ware. The old Revere Ware from before 1968, with the heavy copper bottoms. I am more concerned with the food itself than with the toxins released from my cookware.

Enough doom and gloom, who wants a slice of deep dish, stuffed crust skillet pizza?

[fatfutures]

Fine job, Chris!

[C. Perry Rapier]

Chris, I'll take a slice of that pizza if you got one to spare. And also, how about a cup of that coffee while you're up?  ;D

[Chris Stairs]

Perry

   The pizza and coffee are both gone. Snooze you lose! If you stop by, I will use my Revere Ware and brew a fresh pot. I always use the good one for company.

Chris

[Chris Stairs]

Flora,
  I have not forgotten about some of the concerns you raised about the use of recycled iron in the production of cast iron cookware.
  An extensive search of the AB&I website revealed a collection of newsletters aimed towards employees and  customers of AB&I.
  While the sewer pipes and fittings made by AB&I were almost certainly made of recycled material, the cookware was made using "Gray Iron". This would indicate not recycled.
  Check out this copy of their newsletter from 1998 The part about their skillets is at the bottom of the page...

http://abi.best.vwh.net/images/mr98itms.pdf

These skillets are not of much interest to collectors, but as a pizza pan, it's been very good to me.  

[Flora Chow]

Chris, my thoughts:

I looked at the announcement of iron pans in the AB&I newsletter to parse the language.  The words I focus on are:  quality, decorative, gray iron, and fine cooking surface.   I am conflicted in interpretation.  (1)  Usually decorative pieces (in this case though, the design is debossed, so as not be marred) are not intended for functional purposes, and (2) there is an entity called “recycled grey iron”.  The other two descriptors give an alternative message of usability.  I do not know the history of the foundry and I am assuming that pan production is not part of the corporate profile –  it seems to me it would be a big bother to keep equipment and make a special run to make pans every few years, ...but pipes and fittings may be just like pans...  I think that even if raw material for pans is ok, there is expected carry-over of residual matter from previous runs.

-  Something else to think about in this context...  This youtube video of Lodge cast iron was presented in another thread at this forum.  Lodge representative mentions use of recycled steel from a Lazy Boy factory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Cg13Er7rA

-  In this youtube, also of Lodge manufacturing, Lodge representative indicates scrap steel and pig iron are checked for impurities by use of a spectrometer, ... to be sure metal chemistry is pure, ...according to specifications...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgTKTh1UfiU

So, what am I saying?  ...seems there is a perceived need to maintain a certain metal quality in cast iron cookware product.  This high tech approach was not available when earlier cast iron cookware was manufactured.  Why is it done now?

[Chris Stairs]

Flora,

  Thank you for your input. Your background in chemistry gives you a different perspective than most, and a wide range of insight is one of the reasons I enjoy this forum.
  I would like to address your thoughts on the matter, and would like to start by saying that I can find no fault in any of your reasoning.

  I think the reference to gray iron implies that it is not recycled, but you are correct. That is not a safe assumption.
  The issue of carry over of the recycled iron from previous pours did not even occur to me. Again, a valid point.
  I don't think that being described as decorative implies that something is not intended for use. Many cast iron items from the past were very functional, as well as being elaborately decorated.
  Lodge tests not only for purity, but also to allow the right mix of recycled materials from different sources, to ensure consistent composition of the iron they use. I think that the reason the testing was not done in the past for iron used in cookware has a lot to do with the fact that most of it came from freshly mined ore. That, and also I'm sure that nobody gave it much thought. I know I never thought about it much until very recently.
  I'm still not convinced that I should stop using my pizza pan, but you have given me a lot to think about. I thank you for that.
  I thought I should post the part of the newsletter that we have been referring to, for the benefit of future readers who may only see a dead link above.

[Harry Riva]

One may be able to call ABI and ask them where the iron in their skillet runs comes from.
Harry

[Chris Stairs]

Harry,

 I have emailed them today. I think I would need to speak to someone who actually worked there at the time, and was involved in the production of the skillets.

 Steve contacted them back in 2002, and posted his findings on the forum. He was asking about the skillets in general though, not about the source of the iron used to make them.

I live fairly close to AB&I and visited them years ago.  Recently I got this short history lesson from them:

*******************************************
HISTORY OF AMERICAN BRASS & IRON COOKWARE, OAKLAND, CALIF.     JULY, 2002

Hi Steve:
I apologize for such a delayed response.  That is pretty cool that your house has AB&I pipe in it.  If you are ever in a parking garage look up and see the pipe hanging above.  Most likely, it will be AB&I as well.

Frying pan history…

I spoke with Allan Boscacci, the President of AB&I Foundry and he gave me the following information:

The pans were originally made in the late 70’s, early 80’s and were sold by Macy’s for AB&I.  The names American Cookware and San Francisco Cookware were both ours.  The SF Cookware was an iron-enameled pan with a wooden handle that never really got going.  According to Allan, our pans are the only ones that are machined on the inside – this basically makes it non-stick after it is seasoned.  Originally they were fully machined both on the inside and the outside of the pan.  In order to reduce the cost of machining, AB&I added the logos and pictures to the bottoms of the pans.  

We still have all of the patterns and we do make them from time to time, mostly for promotions.  Allan also went on to say that they are the best frying pan ever made, bar none (of course he is not biased or anything :o).  There are no hot spots due to an even wall thickness on our pans.

This is all the information he had to share.  They never really took off and were never profitable so that is why they dropped the line.  I hope this helps you.

Take care.
Dori Keenan
Customer Service Manager


 -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Stephens
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:11 PM
To: dori@abifoundry.com
Subject: FW: AB&I iron cookware and its history

 Hi Dori,
I have not heard back from you and was wondering if anything might come of my request for a brief history of the AB&I iron cookware.  (See below).
Since I talked to you last back in February I have discovered that my house has AB&I sewer pipe in it (1950).  Big deal, huh, but interesting.
Regards,
Steve Stephens


From: Steve Stephens
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:36:34 -0700
To: <dori@abifoundry.com>
Subject: AB&I iron cookware and its history

Dear Dori,

Thank you for our brief phone chat this morning.

I am wanting to find out some history of the line of AB&I cast iron cookware that you used to produce.  Being a veteran cast iron cookware collector and researcher, I am always looking to add to my knowledge of different makes of iron cookware.  As I mentioned to you, I visited AB&I about 10-12 years ago and learned a little of your cookware line then.

What prompted my current interest in your cookware was a phone call last night from a woman in Fairfield, CA wanting to know what the AB&I stood for on her skillet.  I also responded yesterday to an inquiry on a forum for iron cookware about "American" cookware which I think is your line.  There have been several other, recent postings on that website looking for information on AB&I but no one seems to know who you are.  I have posted you website history page on the forum but hope to be able to provide more information to the cast iron collecting community in general.  With your permission I would like to be able to share the information you might provide to me with other collectors.

Specifically, what I would like to know is:

1.  A brief (or long if you prefer), but accurate, story or history about how the AB&I iron cookware came into being and why it was discontinued.  Best would be the history directly from the persons who were involved in the creation and/or marketing of the cookware.

2.  The different pieces and sizes that were made, and the different markings that were used and on which pieces.  I know that you had a series of pans with historic scenes such as a riverboat on the underside of the pan.

3.  The dates of production.  You also told me that you currently have been making peridic runs of skillets only for gifts to your employees.   It would be great to also chronicle what has been made more recently and when.

4.  Any copies of printed material you might have showing AB&I iron cookware including anything that would help document what you made.

5.  Any other information that might be of interest to cast iron cookware collectors.
                                                                                                                                                      Due to increasing interest in iron cookware and quite a few people wondering about AB&I cookware, I thought it would be a good idea to compile some history while that information might still be available.  You might want to also incorporate some history of your iron cookware into your website.  

To do a good history might take some time but the benefit to collectors, and even to your company's history, would seem to be very worthwhile.  Thank you for your help in this matter.
Sincerely,
Steve Stephens

[Chris Stairs]

I received this response from AB&I in regards to my email inquiry. Seems they still have the same person working there as when Steve  contacted them.

The frying pans were made back in the 80's on a regular basis and were
sold through Macy's at one time.  There was a whole set of different
sizes.  AB&I only makes them as promotional items now. They are made on
our Disamatic molding machines.  


Thanks,
Dori Keenan

 I sent a follow up email specifically asking about recycled iron in cookware, and have not gotten any response. I guess current sales are the priority, not history.

[Chris Stairs]

may be prudent not to use AB&I cast iron as cookware
Flora

 Flora,
   It's been a long time since we had this discussion. My interests in cast iron cookware have changed over time, and I had replaced my pizza skillet with an older bottom gated long pan. The time had come to reduce the size of my collection by selling some of the items that no longer interested me.
   I found a buyer for my AB&I skillets, who was interested in displaying, rather than using them. I printed out this thread to show him.
   Thank you again for your input, and concern.