electro question 5: electrode materials

[Lewis Downey]

Hello,

Does a table or collection of data like the one below exist somewhere on the forum - but populated with meaningful information?  I recognize that the information is distributed throughout the forum in numerous threads, but is it collated anywhere that visitors can access?


Negative Electrode / Black Lead / Cathode

Material or Product	Desirability	Comments
300 series stainless steel	highly desirable	More resistance than copper, requires more current, long lasting, very safe for the cast iron piece being cleaned.
Vise Grips	desirable	original Vise Grips might be made of chrome plated steel
copper wire (stranded)	???	Conducts efficiently but may corrode and release copper into electrolyte resulting in copperplating damage to cast iron. Monitor exposed copper closely, discard if any sign of corrosion appears.
18 series stainless steel	???	???
copper wire (solid)	???	???
copper rod	???	???
galvanized iron	???	???
aluminum	???	???
cast iron	???	???
chrome plated steel	???	???
zinc plated steel	???	???
please suggest other materials...	???	???

I am trying to figure out the desirability and/or problematic nature of specific materials and items.

For instance he material that Irwin Vise Grips are made from -- listed on the manufacturers web site as "high-grade heat-treated alloy steel". I'd be surprised if anyone knows exactly which alloy Irwin uses but it might be agreed that it works fine for about 100s hours then corrodes, pollutes the electrolyte and causes some specific problem or the other. Or maybe it can be agreed that Irwin Vise Grips are close to perfect and can be submerged in the electrolyte more or less indefinitely.

A competing locking pliers product from Kobalt lists its materials as "chrome vanadium steel". Is submerging "high-grade heat-treated alloy steel" from Irwin better or worse than submerging "chrome vanadium steel" from Kobalt?

How about the "Black Malleable Iron" in this clamp: http://www.grainger.com/product/CADDY-Beam-Clamp-1CWC4?functionCode=QV2IDP2PCP. If cast iron can sit in the electro for extremely long periods of time, maybe  I could might look for cast iron fittings to submerge in the electrolyte.

How about common zinc-plated metal fittings?

I am trying to avoid a couple of scenarios. One is where I go out and spend $30 bucks on something that either doesn't work well or that would works no better than some ordinary material like... I dunno, $0.50 worth of zinc-plated chain from the hardware store. Another scenario I hope to avoid is one where I use some sort of readily available inexpensive material, maybe stranded copper wire, and end up ruining a piece of cast iron by copperplating it <or something>.

[Cheryl Watson]

Things I have learned:

Anything submerged in the electrolyte for extended periods of time will develop signs of wear and usage...... however, I use Stainless Steel hardware whenever possible, as the life span on SS bolts, nuts, washers, slotted, rod, etc is great.  More $$ up front, but no replacement concerns for many years...

Even the SS Anodes are cheaper in the long run.......

Galvanized/zinc coated metals should not be submerged in the electrolyte, as the sodium carbonate will degrade the zinc coating into the solution....

The only galvanized item I use is the single hole cable strap to suspend my slotted, and that is above the solution, and requires replacement frequently... good thing they are cheap.....

CAST IRON should NOT sit submerged in the solution in the electro for any length of time other than when the current is actively flowing. 

Leaving it in the solution with out active current flow sets up a situation for possible galvanic corrosion and or uncontrolled ambient electron exchange. 

When I turn my unit off, the CI piece is removed immediately.  If it needs further time in the electro, I set it aside until such time as I can turn the electro back on.........

[Lewis Downey]

All good, but at this time I'm unwilling to layout $200 for a pair of stainless steel vise grips or $50+ for stainless steel c-clamps.

[Mark Zizzi]

The small vice grips I use are not SS, they say "the original vicegrips" on them..looks like chrome plated steel to me. They had some rust on them when I started, now they are clean. Hasn't hurt them a bit that I can see, but could be replaced for less than 10 bucks anyway.  My C-clamps I used to use are not SS either, but worked just fine also. This can be as hi-tech or as low-tech as you want to spend, Lewis. How much iron do you plan on cleaning? Cheryl cleans a lot of iron, it makes more sense for her to have what she has.  ;)

[Lewis Downey]

Mark, I have 30 to 40 pieces of cast iron, most if not all needs cleaning. The majority of pieces came from my mother's house after she passed away and from cleaning an elderly friend's basement. At the moment I have invested between $225 and $275.  If I don't spend another penny, each piece will end up costing between $5 and $10 to clean. Some it might be salable; most is nothing special, maybe $15-ish for those items, more for other items.  If that happens and some of the upfront investment is recouped I won't have any problem investing in technology upgrades. Between now and then, I just want to make good decisions without either risking the cast iron or spending additional hundreds of dollars.

After the original collection is cleaned, seasoned and dealt with, I hope to search out other pieces and see where this goes. I love watching a piece go from nasty to beautiful. If I can figure a way to restore cast iron cookware that either turns a profit or at least breaks even, I can see keeping an electro and lye bath going on a pretty regular basis.

[Mark Zizzi]

Well that's a good bit of iron to clean, Lewis. But just to reiterate..I've done about that many in my 20 gal rubbermade tub with some scrap SS along the sides. I already had the charger, iron c-clamps, vicegrips and wire. Had to buy the tub (8.00), the scrap SS (10.00) and a box of super washing soda (about 3.00 I think it was.) And they all turned out beautifully. I do plan on upgrading my setup to a barrel and plates like Cheryl has..someday.... ;)

[Lewis Downey]

Mark, You are way more practical than I am! On the other hand, I didn't have the power supply, so there went $100. Then I got seduced into the whole sexy stainless all around thing. Boom there went some more cash. Add in a $15 for a 55-gallon barrel, two containers of lye at $15 each, a tub for the lye bath and whammo - maxed out my budget :-(  I have to economize for a bit.  The focus now is to avoid harming the cast iron.

I love the simplicity and practicality of your approach. The current plan <ha, inadvertent pun> is to go with your model of vice grips and romex for the one or two pieces that do not have hanging holes.  I just hope the Romex will hold the heaviest piece. It probably will. I am also considering a 1/8" solder-able iron rod for $3 from Lowe's in lieu of the Romex. I mention solder-able not because I plan to solder it to anything but because Lowe's differentiates it from some other metal rods that way.  It looks like plain iron or steel; I cannot say what it is with much certainty -- only that it can be soldered. I am pretty sure it is not galvanized.

Thanks for your replies; they are very helpful, as are posts from Cheryl and others. Collectively the forum is saving me numerous mistakes and a lot of time.

[C. Perry Rapier]

Hello Lewis. I will gladly give you your due. You are quite obvisouly a smart man. BUT, with all due respect you are overthinking this whole thing.

And just my opinion here, and I have been playing with electro for well over ten years, but I would never use a pair of vise grips on any of my cast iron, NONE. The reason being that there is a chance you can break the piece or just mark it with the vice grips and you don't want to do either.

If I need something hooked up like that I use a C clamp, sometimes a smaller one, sometimes a bigger one, whatever I am cleaning.

You don't need to put a lot of money in an electro to make it work. When I first started I was using big number ten cans, you know, restaurant size, for the donor piece. A friend that owned a restaurant was saving them for me.

I would cut the top and bottom out and smash them flat. I would use one or two of them at a time. And they worked great. They just didn't last too long. After about three times cleaning a piece you could crumble them in your hands almost like making a snowball.

Get you some scrap SS and start working with it. I like to use the hanging sheets of SS. That way you can just turm them around to the other side and they are new all over.

But start simple and you can experiment with it all you want. I have been using it for a long time. And what I have seen here is that most folks make more out of it than what it is.

When I started the only thing I knew was red was positive and it goes to the donor piece and the negative went to the piece to be cleaned. From there I just toyed with it to get it doing better. Hope it all works out for you Lewis.  :)

[Mark Zizzi]

Perry, if you adjust the visegrips correctly, you won't damage the piece.. doesn't leave a mark either. See, I don't have wired c-clamps like Cheryl made..I would try to c-clamp the stripped wire to the piece and sometimes the wire would try to squirt out from under the clamp just as it was getting tight...especially stranded wire. Vise grips are just so much easier to attach..squeeze over the wire and the piece, adjust the screw just so it grips and clamp. You don't use a crushing force..you use just enough to make a good contact point. I doubt I'll ever go back to c-clamps.  ;)
But I do agree with you that Lewis might be worried about little details that you really don't have to worry about when you first start out. Get your feet wet and learn and tweak as you go, Lewis..it's iron..you won't hurt it. Any questions as you go, you'll find all the help you might need right here...I know I did.  8-)

[Cheryl Watson]

I don't use the Vise Grips, and I have stacks of them...and I have chewed up plenty of other types of metal in every day use with those serrated teeth on them...  :(

Note on C Clamps.... you want bare metal 'C' 's... not coated, if you want them to conduct...  Lowe's is the only place I can find the uncoated ones, so far.  (don't ask how I learned this one!   ;D )

Now Mark, get out those electrical connectors, and a drill, and attach those wires 'properly'....  ;)

Just for a quick view... again...

Connector wires to carry negative current to piece.... a variety of shapes and sizes.  I no longer use vinyl coated stranded copper(rated 30 amp or greater), but strip out the insulated wire from Romex.....to get the solid copper insulated wire...

Clamps to the right, affix to my Negative threaded rod, to the left, connect to the piece being cleaned.

[Mark Zizzi]

Yeah Cheryl..I'll get around to it one of these days.  :P And vise grips can do a lot of damage if you let them. I only use the tips, the serrated teeth never touch the piece, and these are the smallest size they come in, not the big powerful ones. It makes a secure connection with zero damage or I wouldn't keep using them...just sayin.  ;) Btw, I have several small uncoated c-clamps like yours that say Craftsman on them, but they're pretty old. Maybe Sears still carries them,  I don't know.

[Lewis Downey]

I don't use the Vise Grips, and I have stacks of them...and I have chewed up plenty of other types of metal in every day use with those serrated teeth on them...  Sad

Note on C Clamps.... you want bare metal 'C' 's... not coated, if you want them to conduct...  Lowe's is the only place I can find the uncoated ones, so far.

The metal Vise Grips in this pic do not have teeth; they have nice rounded bumps with no sharp edges. They conduct. The threaded adjustment piece was simply replaced with 1/4 - 20 threaded rod and my negative lead was attached at the top; the combo seems to work fine. I'm happy with its performance mechanically (attaching to CI) and electrically (the rust came off of the CI).

But I am concerned for the electrolyte and future pieces.

They appear to finished in some process that discourages rust. Are there any meaningful concerns for using these in the electro, other than damaging the CI by applying to much force when closing them?

[James Wilson]

Hi Lewis.
You do not need $$$$ invested in an electro set up. Simple is best, sophisticated is better but really, it is unnecessary. The biggest cost is a reliable, variable power supply.
Here is a list of what I use.

A - I have two small G clamps
B - a bunch of machine screws, nuts and washers for
      attaching the wire to the item.
C - 8mm s/s bolts with multiple flat washers that I use as a
      bus when treating multiple items
D - lengths of standard steel gas welding rod (2mm dia )
E - small vice grips for use (never immersed)
F - largish electrical strip connectors (brass not plated steel)
G - a few lengths of 2 x 1, drilled at intervals to accept weld
     wire   

To clarify, I will post some images later today.
I would never use a vice grip to clamp cast iron nor would I immerse (sacrifice) them in an electrolysis bath. The risk of marking or breakage is not worth it for me. Plus quality vice grips are not inexpensive items and are better used elsewhere.
The other consideration is that direct electrical contact is more efficient than the current making its way through a multi hinged tool, the vice grip. A resistant check on a new set up may show no resistance but I assume that would surely change as the solution takes its toll on the vice grip.



   

[Mark Zizzi]

Hi Lewis and James,
Well everyone has their own methods and ideas..and most of them you read on these pages will work. I see nothing wrong with your vicegrip connector. I can clamp and lift a raw egg with vicegrips without breaking it,   so I can't agree with any "damage" concerns, especially with the ones you show in your pics.  I have a lot of cleaned iron to back that up. Also, when connected to the neg cable I am seeing NO damage to the vicegrips I use either..if anything they get cleaner...and yes they are submerged. So to answer your question, yes, the only concern would be possibly using too much force when clamping...that's what the adjusting screw is for and it ain't rocket science.   Otherwise, I like what you have there.  Just my opinion.  ;)
I

[James Wilson]

Hi Lewis and James,
Well everyone has their own methods and ideas..and most of them you read on these pages will work. I see nothing wrong with your vicegrip connector. I can clamp and lift a raw egg with vicegrips without breaking it,   so I can't agree with any "damage" concerns, especially with the ones you show in your pics.  I have a lot of cleaned iron to back that up. Also, when connected to the neg cable I am seeing NO damage to the vicegrips I use either..if anything they get cleaner...and yes they are submerged. So to answer your question, yes, the only concern would be possibly using too much force when clamping...that's what the adjusting screw is for and it ain't rocket science.   Otherwise, I like what you have there.  Just my opinion.  ;)
I

It is all good Mark. Some are ham fisted and others have the touch, whatever works. The cheaper the better.
The other risk if using vice grips could be falling into the habit of lifting the items using the grips; vertical is not a problem but as soon as you change the orientation then there are large leverage loads acting on that cast item you are attempting to resurrect. That old adage "familiarity breeds contempt" comes to mind.

I want to see that raw egg trick Mark. No staged events or the best result selected from multiple attempts OK? ;) 8-)

[Mark Zizzi]

Lol James..I was wondering if someone was going to call me on that,  but no worries mate...pics coming soon. Gotta get the grandkids fed and in bed and I'll work on that.  ;)

[James Wilson]

Lol James..I was wondering if someone was going to call me on that,  but no worries mate...pics coming soon. Gotta get the grandkids fed and in bed and I'll work on that.  ;)

Haha. I have learnt to be patient, I will give you a fortnight then your times up Mark  ;D

Just remenber, no photoshop sleight of hand

[Lewis Downey]

To clarify, I will post some images later today.

Fantastic. I am looking forward to the pictures.  When I was first trying to wrap my head around electros I thought iron rod used for welding should make a fine cathode. It conducts electricity more efficiently than SS and since it is iron... I couldn't see any reason it would be a problem.  But any meaningful understanding I had for the physics of electricity has left the building - just like Elvis.  I opted for stainless because it is well-documented around here and seems to be a can't-go-wrong choice.

My power supply is not a battery charger; it is a very old 10-amp 16-volt bench power supply made by BK Precision. It is under-powered relative to many of the battery chargers people use, so switching to a cathode that conducts more efficiently may be attractive.

I would never use a vice grip to clamp cast iron nor would I immerse (sacrifice) them in an electrolysis bath. The risk of marking or breakage is not worth it for me. Plus quality vice grips are not inexpensive items and are better used elsewhere.

I'm with Mark on this. I have been careful about applying just enough pressure to hold the piece of cast iron. I think it is safe to say you could not identify (sorry) any place the vise grips were applied. If a piece is damaged, I'll reconsider whether to continue using the Vise Grips.

My normal cathode is a variation of the thing in the drawing below - threaded rod with a 90° bend plus a couple of nuts and washers. That works for everything with a hanging hole. I've only used the Vise Grips on two pieces, one had no hole to hang the piece from, the other (a gem pan for cornbread) did but after a period of time in the electro I rotated it 90° to get better line of sight into some nooks and crannies. It only had a hanging hole on one end, so the Vise Grips were necessary for the other angle.

I admit to looking forward to pics of an egg in a Vise Grip. I think we need to know if the egg is hard-boiled.

The other consideration is that direct electrical contact is more efficient than the current making its way through a multi hinged tool, the vice grip. A resistant check on a new set up may show no resistance but I assume that would surely change as the solution takes its toll on the vice grip.

What toll will the electro take on the Vise Grips? Will they put anything into solution that can come back and haunt future CI? I agree they may not be as electrically efficient as a direct connection, but they do conduct electricity and no way would you want to touch them while they are active. Occasional bouts of inefficiency aren't much of a concern. I don't expect to use them all that often. I will say that removing pieces for treatment with cold water is faster using the Vice Grips than undoing washers and nuts.

[C. Perry Rapier]

Gentlemen I only understand about a third of what you guys are talking about here. But there is no doubt in my mind that you do know what you are talking about. But if I had to make an electro from what I am reading in this thread I would be very much lost and give up on the whole idea.  :)

[Mark Zizzi]

Rofl Perry.. have we made it that confusing? I hope not..seems simple to me. Here are the pics I promised. It takes a very careful touch on an egg, but it can be done. I swear this is a fresh egg and I don't know the first thing about photoshop, even if I had it. No multiple attempts needed either. I just want to lay to rest the notion that visegrips will harm your iron.. THEY WON'T! If you're scared they will, don't use them. But they won't.. unless you don't know how to use visegrips. Are there other options? Yes. Better options? Maybe. Easier to hook up options? No. I've done the c-clamp thing..this is even quicker and easier than a c-clamp. Do you need something easier than a C-clamp? I would hope not... that's not my point. My point is I have to chuckle at anyone that aghastly cries out  "I would never use visegrips on my iron." ..like your going to clamp down with all your might like you would on a rusty nut or bolt you're trying to loosen. If you don't know how to use a tool, I guess you probably shouldn't use it. But you can pick up an egg with visegrips..try it!  ;)

The first pic is with a pair similar to Lewis's. Note the two bystanders hoping for a fail.
2nd pic with a standard type of Visegrips..they're still hopeful!
3rd pic. Well I had to let them have it for playing their part so well.  ;D
Sorry for the shaky pics..my phone is very hard to use one handed. The lens in front is exactly opposite  of the shutter button on the back. Who the heck designed this thing anyway....