Author Topic: Qs re dishwasher v. lye  (Read 10491 times)

curiousmom

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Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« on: July 07, 2006, 02:10:51 PM »
Hi all,

Thank you so much for this helpful website and forum!!

I'm a newbie and have some questions.  I have a few pieces, just ordinary stuff from the 70's -- that's 1970's -- plus a disappointingly bumpy brand new Lodge pre-seasoned 12" skillet.  The weird quality of my new Lodge skillet ultimately led me to google some more for cast iron, and I ended up here.  I'm considering embarking on a search for a superior pan, and maybe an old griddle and chef's pan as well.  So here I am, with questions to be answered first.  

I'm puzzled about this.  Why would a dishwashing machine be worse than lye for an old pan?

Q.#2:  Or, How about a machine dishwash without the detergent?  Why not ?  It would be lots of physical force with very hot water.  Maybe not hot enough?  But it couldn't hurt, could it?

What about oven cleaner?  Is it basically lye or another strong alkaline?  And perhaps safer to use?  

And, of course, I'm disappointed that no one seems share my interest in the mechanism  for the formation of a hard non-stick surface.  It can't be just plain carbon element.  It would have to be a more complex molecule, right?   Whatever, this is just a curiosity for me.  

But I want to know what I'm getting into with the cleaning issue before I make any purchases!!  
Help?




Steve_Stephens

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2006, 03:07:34 PM »

Hi Jane,
I'' give a stab at your questions:

 Why would a dishwashing machine be worse than lye for an old pan?
Mostly because the dw probably would not clean the old iron of its buildup of seasoning, crust, rust, etc.  It might take some off but not the way that lye will.  Lye has no effect on rust.  Cast iron cookware sitting in a lye bath seems to be permanently protected from rusting as long as it is submerged in the lye bath.  Putting a usable iron pan in the dw will strip it of any seasoning or seriously degrade the seasoning so it's not something to even consider I don't think.

How about a machine dishwash without the detergent?  Why not ?  It would be lots of physical force with very hot water.  Maybe not hot enough?  But it couldn't hurt, could it?
That's just hot water and aggitation which probaby won't do anything except harm any "good" seasoning.  Good seasoning is that which is thin, fairly hard, and somewhat nonstick as opposed to old, thick, crusty buildup on a pan.


What about oven cleaner?  Is it basically lye or another strong alkaline?  And perhaps safer to use?  
Most but not all oven cleaners are lye and work well on many pieces to remove greasy buildup.  Using oven cleaner is fine for a few pieces but time consuming, costly, and slow for a good number of items.  Lye will not harm the iron (it will cast aluminum and wood handles) and, once rinsed off, will not harm you either.  It's not poisionour either unless ingested but will burn your skin with contact.  I've used lye up till now to clean iron for 30 years and it's worked pretty well.  I use a lye and water solution bath and not oven cleaner.  I'll be changing over to electrolysis shortly as I have more iron to clean and no more lye which has gotten hard to find many places.  Electrolysis removes rust which is an added benefit over lye.

And, of course, I'm disappointed that no one seems share my interest in the mechanism  for the formation of a hard non-stick surface.  It can't be just plain carbon element.  It would have to be a more complex molecule, right?
I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you a chemist?

I think you will find that most of the old iron made pre-1960 or so is far superior to what is available to day even though Lodge makes a good, quality product, there isn't any comparison when you get to using and comparing.  Griswold will almost always give you a top quality product while so will most Wagner, Favorite, and many other companies as well as many unmarked pans.   Good luck.

Steve 



JeanM

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2006, 06:11:38 PM »
Hi Jane,

I'm new at collecting, cleaning, and seasoning old cast iron too, have asked a lot of dumb questions, and have gotten much helpful information from the WAGS folks.

I too first became interested in old cast iron when I bought a Lodge Logic skillet a few months ago and found it to be a rough and clunky piece of cookware.  Quality maybe, but not a pleasure to cook in.  I now have a few good pieces of Griswold, and am absolutely delighted by them.  I'm slowly getting the hang of how to handle them when cooking and cleaning, so that I build up rather than destroy their seasoning.

I saw your question about the chemistry of seasoning - two threads down from this one - but didn't even try to provide an answer.  Hopefully someone else will know.

Cheers,

Jean

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2006, 08:47:49 PM »
Jane, instead of thinking "dishwasher" think "self-cleaning oven".  That is one place you can clean your iron in with no harm to the iron in exchange for possible harm (stinky smoke) to your house.  Don't put any wire handles in the oven or, of course, wood parts.  All the carbon and grease will be removed leaving an ashen grey surface.  If there is no rust you are ready to scour or steel wool or wire brush the surface and proceed with the molecular process of seasoning.   I can't tell you what happens when you season.  I just start using my pans with somewhat oily foods or with oil on the pan and it seasons itself naturally with no bother.

Steve
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 08:48:56 PM by Steve_Stephens »

curiousmom

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2006, 09:22:10 PM »
Jean,
Thank you for your reply.  I've noticed your posts and have been following the threads in order to learn too!  I hope you keep sharing your questions and information.

Steve,
You are so helpful!!  Thank you.

--Jane

Offline C. B. Williams

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2006, 10:00:20 AM »
This thread is interesting because of the questions, and I think Steve gave some very good answers. I'm not sure if the questions about the dishwasher were for cleaning a skillet in normal use or for the purpose of preparing a skillet for seasoning. I'm certainly no chemist, not even sure that there is such a thing as an atom, or proton or whatever, I've never seen one.   :-/ I do know that multiple heatings and oil (I prefer Crisco) will put a black or near black finish in and on the surface of a cast iron piece that is almost non-stick and it will stay on as long as the piece is not subjected to an extreem cleaning of hot water and soap. This surface is far superior, as far as cooking is concerned, to any of the new non-stick surfaces, like Teflon, because you can sear in it and leave a "fond" to de-glaze, and the Teflon (or others) will not allow that. In my opinion, the only modern or new skillet that can rival a really good piece of cast iron is a high quality piece of anodized aluminum, like Calphalon. Now, that said, why would anyone want to put a piece in the dishwasher? Why not just rinse it out, dry it, and put it up till the next time you use it? It doesn't have anything to do with cleanlyness, you just sterilized it cooking in it. If a germ can live through a 400+ deg. cooking, it can sure live through the dishwashers cycles.  So, my suggestion is, keep your cast iron just like it has always been kept and away from your dishwasher.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 10:17:59 AM by cbwilliams »
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Steve_Stephens

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2006, 04:10:03 PM »
CB, my comments on the dishwasher were that only a dirty piece might clean up some.  That I don't even know for sure as have never tried it.  Certainly NEVER put any cast iron cookware that is in use in the dishwasher to clean.  Soak in water is fine and that's what I do after using a pan.  In fact, I usually put some water in the pan right from the stove (after it has cooled a bit) and scrape off any food stuck ot the pan then wipe all over with a paper towel, put away and go eat.  


maloney108

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2006, 08:47:23 PM »
Hi Jane,

I am a chemist and I looked long and hard to find any description of the seasoning process with no luck.  What follows should be considered my best guess and I don't claim any expertise, just some basic chemistry and some experience.

There are two questions I'll try to answer:

1.  Why lye instead of the dishwasher?  This is for the initial cleaning, not the cleaning you give your iron after you have seasoned it properly.  That black junk that covers the beautiful cast iron comes from food - burned food!  Burned food is a very complex mixture and not all of it come from polymerization. You can lump food into three major categories: Fat, protein and saccharides (starch, sugar and cellulose).  All of them can be hydrolzed by lye (sodium hydroxide). 'Hydrolysis' comes from Latin and roughly translated means 'break with water'.  Lye breaks chemical bonds (usually ones with oxygen or nitrogen) in these substances by adding water to a bond - one part gets one 'H' and the other part gets the 'OH' from H2O making two smaller molecules in the process.  Lye is also a very strong agent for this and yet won't do anything to elemental iron.  Hydrolysis products are usually more soluble in water too.  A dishwasher basically removes food by softening it and emulsifying it with detergent.  It doesn't really react chemically with the 'crud' on an old pan and that's why it probably won't work.  Warming your lye bath certainly will help - an old chemist's rule of thumb is that reaction rates double with each ten degrees (centigrade) that you raise the temperature.  Lye won't remove rust, but a vinegar bath will.  Electrolysis will remove both crud and rust at the same time - that's why I'm anxious to try it.

2. What is the seasoning?  This answer is out on a limb, so don't quote me as anything even close to an authority.  The seasoning can't be just carbon because the typical heat used isn't enough to completely decompose the fat into carbon and carbon wouldn't stick to the iron (think charcoal!), in fact, really high heat would make carbon dioxide not carbon (this is what a self cleaning oven does).  

Let's examine what happens when we season iron.  Freshly cleaned and naked iron is very reactive, as we all know too well, and will rust if you look sideways at it.  Fat, left at room temerature, turns rancid after a while.  When you put iron and fat, together with some heat, magic happens!  The iron won't rust, the fat won't turn rancid and the two are not easily separated.  This tells me that the fat reacts directly with the iron, forming chemical bonds that are relatively strong and resistant.  I'm sure there is some polymerization, but I think the iron/fat bonds are what do the work in our cookware.  The fact that repeated use improves the seasoning tells me that more of the surface iron atoms react with more fat molecules - I don't think it would improve if it was just a polymerization reaction, in fact I think it would get worse with time.

I hope this helps and isn't too long or too technical, but it's not a simple issue.  

By the way, I don't use bacon fat for initial seasoning because of the smoky chemicals and the salt - these might react with the iron adversely. though nobody seems to complain about it.  I use Crisco, but any pure rendered hard fat (lard, suet, etc.) should work fine.

The first thing I usually cook in freshly seasoned iron is scrambled eggs with butter (well, maybe not in a waffle iron!).  If it sticks, I didn't do a good job seasoning, If the eggs get a greyish color, I didn't clean it well enough (the dogs don't seem to mind).  

Here's how I clean my seasoned iron: while still warm, I rinse with hot water & wipe out the bigger bits, then I dry it and use a little paste of kosher salt and neutral veg oil like canola (not olive or other strong flavored oil) then use a paper towel & the paste to scour the pan clean. I give it another shot of hot water, dry it & hang it back up.  It seems everyone has their own little ritual.

Cheers,

Jim Maloney

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2006, 09:16:04 PM »
Quote
2. What is the seasoning?  This answer is out on a limb, so don't quote me as anything even close to an authority.  The seasoning can't be just carbon because the typical heat used isn't enough to completely decompose the fat into carbon and carbon wouldn't stick to the iron (think charcoal!), in fact, really high heat would make carbon dioxide not carbon (this is what a self cleaning oven does).  
Everything we wanted to know about seasoning and more.  Great post Jim.  Now we are getting the molecular story on what we do without iron. Who really cared before?  But understanding the processes is helpful as things start to tie together.

Self cleaning oven just "burns" (oxydizes) the carbon on pans, right?  So that oxydizing is making Carbon dioxide?   I've had some pieces of iron that just won;t come clean in a lye bath unless heated very warm and left in a long time.  I have thought that the residue on those pieces had turned to, basically, almost pure carbon without any (or very little amounts) of grease in the carbon.  If PURE carbon will lye have ANY effect on removal of the carbon from iron or does some, even a little, grease or oil in the carbony crust make it possible for the lye to remove the residue?  How did a pan get covered with almost pure carbon?  My assumption is on pans used on high heat (one was a hearts star waffle iron and often times I have skillets with a hard crust), maybe over a gas stove.  Enough time spent on high enough heat without new oils being added to the resulting seasoning or crust would seem to "dry out" or vaporize any oils leaving almost pure carbon.   So, mostly my question is "will lye remove PURE carbon" from iron cookware?

Thanks,
Steve

Offline Dwayne Henson

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2006, 10:27:40 PM »
Yair
  Is there any way to "grab" Jim's explaination and put it with your FAQ's? It's the best one I've heard yet.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 10:29:44 PM by ddaa99 »
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maloney108

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2006, 10:29:38 PM »
Hi Steve,

Short answer:  I'm almost positive that lye won't touch pure cerbon, but don't  call me if you put your wife's diamond in it and find it gone in the morning [smiley=furious3.gif] !

In the presence of Oxygen, almost everything organic turns to carbon dioxide (with some carbon monoxide, nitrogen gases and water) at high heat.  That's what happens in a self cleaning oven.  I think they get up to 600 - 700 degrees F.  You get carbon build up in the absence of oxygen (as in under a thick layer of other gunk!).  That's how they make charcoal - they heat wood in a confined space that smothers the flames and doesn't allow adequate oxygen - you get nearly pure carbon.   When you burn it in your hibachi, you guessed it: CO2.

When you clean with lye, all the gunk gets hydrolyzed and dissolves. The carbon that's suspended in the crud just falls off once it doesn't have any more gunk to hold it together.  That's probably the majority of the sludge (along with loose rust particles) at the bottom of a lye bath after several uses.

As far as how a pan gets covered in almost pure carbon?  My guess is that it was covered by use with a thick layer of crud and then heated pretty good and pretty long in a place that didn't have much oxygen.  What that place is is beyond me.  I can't believe how much buildup there is on some pieces.  I think some people were afraid to do any cleaning at all for fear of de-seasoning the piece and when it got so bad that it was disgusting, they hid it in a corner or threw it into a shed.  I do know one old woman who uses a small skillet (# 5 or so) to keep her 'drippings' in so she can make gravy with her biscuits in the morning.  It sits on the back of her stove day & night.  It looks pretty disgusting, but the gravy is great

I hope you don't mind my high tech terms like crud & gunk - sometimes I can't help myself!

Cheers,

Jim Maloney

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 11:10:54 PM »
Jim, I understand crud and junk. Come see my house.  Just kidding.  Self cleaning oven goes to 900 F I have read.   Wouldn't there be much less oxygen at the underside of a cruddy skillet sitting on a gas flame?  The flame would be using a lot of the oxygen at that point.

Steve

curiousmom

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2006, 12:50:02 AM »
Wow, thanks for all the analysis and info Jim!

And everyone: I'll NEVER even MENTION a dishwasher again, much less put any cast iron into one!

This forum and website are really good sources for learning about cast iron.

Thanks,
Jane

(p.s. If I ever figure out the smiley guys, I'll ease up on the exclamation points!!  I promise.)

maloney108

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2006, 07:56:29 AM »
Steve,

Good point about he bottom of a skillet.  It mystifies me how that can happen.  I'm wondering if the really thick stuff all over a piece comes from storing it badly somewhere after they stopped using it.  Another thought would be that they skillets were used on a coal or wood stove and all the soot and partial combustion products somehow stick to the bottom.

Gas is a lot cleaner than other fuels and a properly adjusted gas flame should make only CO2 and H2O, so that shouldn't be the source of the gunk.  Now if you are sloppy and leave the dribbles on the bottom of the pan after you pour some bacon grease or frying oil out, maybe you could get a nice thick layer of crud!

As I said, I'm mystified that people would use equipment that looks like it had spent a few years in a sewer but those were different times when people took a bath once a month whether they needed it or not!

Cheers,

Jim

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2006, 01:32:46 AM »
Quote
 Now if you are sloppy and leave the dribbles on the bottom of the pan after you pour some bacon grease or frying oil out, maybe you could get a nice thick layer of crud!

That's how I think the thick layer builds up on the outside of a skillet.  A friend had an old tenant in her duplex who fried chops or some kind of meat in a small skillet.  You should have seen the grease all over the pan and on the floor adjacent to the skillet.  He may have died of grease poisoning instead of old age but he was older.

Steve

ysageev

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2006, 02:44:19 AM »
Quote
Yair
  Is there any way to "grab" Jim's explaination and put it with your FAQ's? It's the best one I've heard yet.


I'll consider adding the lye details to the FAQ.  The goal of the FAQ is to answer common and simple questions and a chemical analysis of lye cleaning is borderline.  I'm also not convinced at all that the fat reacts with the iron.  There can be many other explanations for why oiled pans don't turn rancid, for example:

1. Oil is very thinly layered and exposed to the air through large surface area -- bacteria that cause rancidity  are anaerobic bacteria and are inhibited by the larger presence of dissolved oxygen or simple exposure to oxygen, particularly if the size of the bacteria is greater than the thickness of the oil layer.
2. Oil on a pan is too dry, thick, or dense from heating or air exposure to be hospitable to bacteria.  

Intuitively it doesn't seem right that an organic polymer will bond with a ferrous metal.  If it did then our cleaning systems would be far less effective since the oil would be electrically attracted to the iron on a chemical level and would resist the breaking of chemical bonds from lye, soap, or the physical pressure of bubbles during electrolysis.  I'm not saying that chemical bonding doesn't occur, but Jim's is merely one of many other equally-unsubstantiated hypotheses about this matter.

It is also not clear to me what the presence and purpose is of kosher salt is from a cleaning perspective, other than to act as a simple abrasive, which would risk removing the seasoning, and could even encourage rust.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 03:17:23 AM by ysageev »

ysageev

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2006, 02:47:39 AM »
Quote
Wow, thanks for all the analysis and info Jim!

And everyone: I'll NEVER even MENTION a dishwasher again, much less put any cast iron into one!

On the other hand, it seems to me that a dishwasher is a superb way to clean aluminum.  I will be experimenting with a couple aluminum pieces tomorrow.  I mean, if the sites tell you to boil aluminum in soapy water to remove buildup -- doesn't that sound similar to a dishwasher?

Steve_Stephens

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2006, 03:35:04 AM »
Been thinking about the dishwasher and I think it might be a good way to clean iron.  First, load up the dirty iron you want to come out shiny clean.  Second, place one cup of lye crystals in the detergent dispenser.  Third, turn on dishwasher to "clean iron" cycle.   Leave house while dishwasher is doing its cycle and go to appliance store to order/chose new dishwasher replacement.  Go home, take out your clean iron, take out the dishwasher and put at the curb for pickup, install newly delivered dishwasher knowing that you will NEVER repeat that experiment.  But you have one batch of clean iron and a new dishwasher.  That's progress.

Steve

ysageev

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2006, 03:50:44 AM »
Steve, you're the kind of guy who disturbs the Maytag repairman from his peaceful slumber.

Offline Duke Gilleland

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Re: Qs re dishwasher v. lye
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2006, 05:35:35 AM »
Steve, You forgot to use the "high temp water cycle". Add every bit you can! ;D
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