Early Wagner vs Griswold's second series Erie

[Jared Spencer]

Hey everyone. I was hoping someone might be able to help me with a question. I recently acquired a Wagner no 11 skillet from 1891-1899ish (pics below). It is one of Wagner's earliest pieces with the straight, block logo. It is also clearly a copy of a second series Erie skillet. I have a Erie second series No. 10, and these to skillets are definitely siblings, down to the strange little indention in the rib of the handle. One can tell that Wagner even left the size number of the skillet the same as the original Griswold skillet - the font is exactly the same as used by Griswold, both in the number and as the "I" in Erie.

There is some debate (mostly raised by myself) about if these early Wagners (as well as other Erie copies from other foundries) were copies of a production Erie skillets or if Griswold sold their early patterns to other foundries. The only way to tell is to measure skillet sizes, as skillets based on another skillet should be smaller because of the shrinking factor of iron as it cools. Unfortunately I do not have a No. 11 second series Erie for comparison, so I am hoping that one of you may. If so and you are willing, I'm requesting that someone measure their skillet to see if the Wagner is roughly the same size or if it is approximately 1/8" smaller. There is no way for this to be conclusive unless we were sure it was the exact same pattern, but since that would be impossible to exactly determine I think a this would at least give circumstantial evidence to answer the question. I would need measurements from spout to spout, as well as just wall to wall (the narrower portion, not the spouts). Both internal diameter and external diameter measurements would be wonderful!

Thanks!

Here is the Wagner as well as my Erie 10; it is clear to see that the Wagner is based off of an Erie.

[John Wright]

Hi Jared,

There is an abundance of information on this topic on the "Dark Side" of the WAGS Forum. You should join WAGS, search your topic and enjoy the trip.

John

[Donald Pape]

I have a Second Series ERIE #11 skillet that measures as follows: Spout-to-Spout outside diameter @ 13-5/16"; inside diameter @ 13-1/8". Outside rim diameter @ 12-7/16"; inside rim diameter @ 12-1/4". Overall length of the skillet @ 17-5/16". Hope this information helps to answer your questions. Best regards.

[Jared Spencer]

I have a Second Series ERIE #11 skillet that measures as follows: Spout-to-Spout outside diameter @ 13-5/16"; inside diameter @ 13-1/8". Outside rim diameter @ 12-7/16"; inside rim diameter @ 12-1/4". Overall length of the skillet @ 17-5/16". Hope this information helps to answer your questions. Best regards.

Thanks for the information! For my Wagner the dimensions are StS: OD - 13 3/16", ID 12 7/16; RtR: OD - 12 6/16", ID - 12 2/16", and overall length of 17 3/16". This means yours is larger by StS: ~ 1/8", RtR: ~ 1/8", and overall length: ~ 1/8".

Although this is not conclusive unless we could determine if both pans stemmed from the same original pattern, I think its fairly strong circumstantial evidence that the Wagner was copied from a production model Erie and not from a second hand pattern acquired from Erie. Cool to know!

Thanks again, Donald!

[Donald Pape]

Glad to help out with any helpful information. Although the resemblance between the Second series ERIE skillets and the 1891-1897 era One-Line Wagner series skillets is remarkable, I never considered the possibility that the Wagner's were recast from the ERIE's. I guess I learned something too. Thanks for that opportunity. Best regards, DON.

[Cheryl Watson]

I would think that Wagner was a large enough manufacturer, that they could produce their own pattern without copying someone else's using a skillet...

Producing a skillet with similar 'design features' was also normal across all manufacturer's during these time periods, and manufacturers routinely produced pieces with variations in dimensions (size) than their competitors. 

Now WAPAK is the one that turns up regularly with ghosts of other Manufacturer names on them.



The old Catalogs help to give a 'sense' of how dimensions of different pieces varied. 

JMHO....

[Jared Spencer]

Cheryl, I agree with later Wagners. They definitely are different skillets. But at the time of this skillet Wagner was basically a startup as a manufacturer of hollow ware, and could very well have used a current production skillet as a pattern. The resemblance is more than passing. Have a look at the two handles here. The reinforcing pads are identical. So are the notches in the handle rib. The only difference (and this may not come through in the photos) is that the lines on the Wagner aren't as clean and sharp as on the Griswold. This is reflected throughout the skillet. I'm pretty confident that an Erie was used as a pattern here. Also, on the earlier pics in the thread you can see that the 11 on the Wagner and the 1 in 10 and the I in Erie are identical on the two pans. I find it very unlikely that the two manufacturers happened to produce nearly identical pans by accident; especially considering that a few years later Wagner was producing similar but obviously different pans.

[John Wright]

Hi Cheryl,

you might do search for "Erie Ghost" and you might find some post of Wagner skillets with Erie ghosts like this one:

"Here is a photograph of an interesting ghost-marked skillet that may shed some light on early Wagner skillets. It is a Wagner 7 with the ghost of a shield pattern makers mark. Also you can see a "blurred-out" area above WAGNER, which might represent the effort to obscure ERIE on the second series skillet that was used as a pattern. I have not seen this skillet. The photograph was pulled from an e-Bay listing."

John

[Cheryl Watson]

I'll give it a whirl... when I have a bit more time...  :) :)
Thanks John....!

[Mark Zizzi]

Hello Jared, When I look at your pic of the handles, it looks like the notch is farther from the reinforcing pad on the horizontal one, which would make sense because one is a 10 and one an 11.  I have several Eries with that notch but two that don't have it. I've also looks at countless Erie's on ebay and elsewhere..some have a notch some don't. My theory is that when they clamp the pan to the grinding machine, sometimes it can leave that notch.  I don't know that for a fact..just a theory. That Wagner sure does look like an Erie though. I always thought that was by design, but if there is one with an Erie ghost, I guess that would be proof enough for me...unless Wagner actually did buy some old patterns from Griswold/Erie. I would think that unlikely, but possible.

[C. Perry Rapier]

I'd give a hundred dollars if Steve Stephens was here. Now THERE is a 'skillet handle man'. He would lay right in there and state his point. When it comes to skillet handles, he is second to none. I guarantee it. For those of you who don't know or ever heard of Steve Stephens he used to be a member here. And he has been collecting cast iron a long time. And he is mentioned as a source in the Smith and Wafford books on cast iron.

[Mark Zizzi]

Hi Perry, Do you know if Steve S. ever commented on what caused the notch found on some Erie skillet handles? You don't seem to find them on the smaller ribbed 1st series, but fairly common on 2nd and 3rd series Eries. I'd be curious to know any opinions on that notch, so this is an open question to all. 

[Valerie Johnson]

I always thought the notch like the flat ground areas on Wagners and Griswolds were done for stacking purposes to eliminate wobble when multiple units were stacked together during distribution

[C. Perry Rapier]

Hi Perry, Do you know if Steve S. ever commented on what caused the notch found on some Erie skillet handles? You don't seem to find them on the smaller ribbed 1st series, but fairly common on 2nd and 3rd series Eries. I'd be curious to know any opinions on that notch, so this is an open question to all. 

Hello Mark. I guarantee you that Steve Stephens has commented about this very subject many many times. He is over on FB if you want to find him.

[Mark Zizzi]

Nah thats ok Perry...I don't do FB and he wouldn't know me from Adam anyway. Was just wondering.

Valerie, if that were the case it would seem they would all have the notch, but they don't. You could be on to something though, it could be caused by a previous owner stacking their skillets...hmmm.