The term 'ghost'

[junkjunkie]

On occasion, when I read a description of a piece, the term 'ghost' is listed.  What does that mean?  Thanks.

[C. Perry Rapier]

Judy, its where one pattern has been changed by altering the lettering symbol or whatever to make a new pattern, and then when you look at the product, such as a skillet, you can still see a faint or ghostlike image of parts of the old pattern that have come through on the skillet, even though these parts weren't supposed to be seen on the new product, because the whole idea of altering the pattern was to cover up or change it a part of it.

I guess you could actually say its a failure then, because you ain't supposed to see what you are seeing, which is the ghost image.

Have I got you totally confused yet?

Some of the skillets you can readily see the ghost in is Wapak. Wapak took a griswold pattern and altered it so they could make a Wapak skillet, but on a lot of Wapak skillets you can see parts of the Griswold logo, even though it clearly says Wapak.

[junkjunkie]

Not totally confused :-? :o---I have an idea of what you mean.  I kind of thought that but wasn't sure.  Thanks C. Perry for the explanation.  I have a Wapak at home.  I'll have to check it out.     Judy

[C. Perry Rapier]

Judy, if you have the blue book look at page 23 and you'll see a Eagle Stove Works skillet. In that picture you can see where they took a griswold skillet and changed it, but some parts of the griswold came through anyway.

This particular skillet, and I have seen a few out there is probably one of the most obvious ghost skillets you will see. I think the people that changed the griswold pattern when they made the Eagle Stove Works skillet were drunk.

[junkjunkie]

I think I see a little clearer now.  It's not necessarily because someone wanted to create a fraud.  It's because as other cast iron companies came into the business, they would take a basic Griswold piece and alter it to make their own patterns or logos (Griswold being one the original companies?).  It's just that the original pattern didn't disappear entirely as the new logos were made.  That's why you might see a slight pattern of the old logo?   I hope that wasn't too confusing?  Thanks for the info.

[C. Perry Rapier]

I think I see a little clearer now. It's just that the original pattern didn't disappear entirely as the new logos were made.

Judy, thats exactly right. Also, as in the case of Wagner, Wagner got Griswolds patterns. So Wagner changed them to suit themselves. A good example of a modified pattern is the number 20 hotel skillet. Griswold made it with the Erie, Pa. on it and Wagner took it off but still used part of the original Griswold lettering. So you got a Wagner skillet made with a Griswold altered pattern, and using SOME of the Griswold lettering. If you look at them in the blue book you'll see just what I mean.

Also, back in the day, I would say that patterns were expensive, so it was easier to modify somebody elses pattern, instead of reinventing the wheel. Also, it is believed that perhaps Griswold sold some of its patterns that it no longer wished to use and so companies bought them, and modified them, and therefore GHOSTS began appearing.

[ysageev]

I've added a FAQ posting with this question, along with a photo.  Excellent suggestion, Judy.  

Perry, I will distill your information here and add it later.  I'm curious specifically how the ghost mark entered the casting.  Did they take the old pattern and sand down the old logo and then paste a block for the new logo, or what?


In the future, there is a sticky thread at the top of the FAQ forum where question suggestions are supposed to go.  In the meantime, I am going to move this thread to general info, if possible.

[C. Perry Rapier]

I've added a FAQ posting with this question, along with a photo.

Yair, as they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words" but I didn't know you had, or could take, a picture of a "ghost".  ;D

[Steve_Stephens]

Judy, there are ghosts, "old ghosts" and new ghosts.  Greg knows what an old ghost is or, maybe, has made himself forget as most of us on the forum have.  Old joke- but it wasn't really a joke back then.

My thoughts on ghost marks are that a pattern was modified to includ new markings while obliterating the old marks by filling them in with some material which was probably softer than the pattern itself.  After many molds were repeatedly made from the modified pattern the softer material would gradually wear away from the sand being packed against the pattern, thus making the old mark slightly visible as a ghost mark.

An original pattern could have been modified by its original owner/user or that pattern may have been sold to another foundry which modified it with its name.  Also, a skillet could have been used as a pattern or to make a new pattern or mold.  In this case the resulting casting will be close to 1/8" per foot of size SMALLER than the original piece since cast iron shrinks as it cools by that amount.  If you want to know if a piece was cast using the original pattern or by using an original PIECE check for that 1/8" per foot shrinkage.

Steve

[ysageev]

I've added a FAQ posting with this question, along with a photo.

Yair, as they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words" but I didn't know you had, or could take, a picture of a "ghost".  ;D

Believe me, it didn't like to have its picture taken.  ;D

[Jerry Cermack]

Also, a skillet could have been used as a pattern or to make a new pattern or mold.  

Steve

I saw a skillet last weekend that had Griswold's Erie....ghost lettering....and had a gatemark on the bottom.  I've seen the gatemarked Erie but this was the first Griswold's Erie I've seen with the gatemark.

[Will Person]

Also, a skillet could have been used as a pattern or to make a new pattern or mold.  

Steve

I saw a skillet last weekend that had Griswold's Erie....ghost lettering....and had a gatemark on the bottom.  I've seen the gatemarked Erie but this was the first Griswold's Erie I've seen with the gatemark.

You buy it?   Or did they think they had gold???


Will 8-)

[junkjunkie]

There's quite a lot of info on this cast iron-a lot of things to look out for in a piece!  It takes an experienced collector with an eagle eye to spot these things that most people wouldn't pick up (that being me-I got a long way to go!)   Very interesting, the different viewpoints on this thread!  I did look up page 23 in the blue book and found the example of the 'ghost' skillet that C.Perry told me about.  I also found another example towards the end of the book, I forget what page.  Also,Yair, thank you for the photo in the FAQ forum.  Very helpful!  Now, I have another another question, getting off this subject.  What is a gatemark?  I have seen examples in the blue book, but why were they created?  What  purpose did they serve?  Thank you all again.      Judy

[Steve_Stephens]

In the molding process the "gate" is where the molten iron enters the mold where it spreads out into all parts of the mold to create the casting.  After the sand mold is broken away from the piece, there is still iron attached to the piece where it flowed into the mold.  The gate is made very thin so the excess iron that is not meant to be part of the item can be broken away fairly cleanly. Sometimes the broken area is ground somewhat to smooth but, usually, the area is just left as it is broken.  What you see is called the "gate mark" (where the excess iron was broken from the piece).  Early casting tecniques put the gate at the bottom of most pieces of iron cookware as they were cast in an upside down position so the gate would be at the top for pouring the iron.  After around 1880-1900 many or most foundried making iron cookware moved the gate (where the iron enters the mold) to the edge of the piece and usually around the top, outer edge of, say, a skillet.  That gate area is subsequently ground smooth or pretty smooth.  On 20th century skillets and all pans from most of the major makers from 1880 onwards, you can clearly see where the top outer edge of a skillet has been ground.  Not all the way around but on partial segments of the pan.  By this later method no rough "gate mark" was left and the bottoms of pans could finally be smooth without a lot of extra finishing work.

Steve

[junkjunkie]

Steve--You really know your iron!   If I saw a gate mark in the center of a skillet, it's really an early piece around the later part of the 19th century or earlier and not the 20th century?  If I understand correctly?

[Steve_Stephens]

That's as close to correct as you are likely to get.  I don't think we know exactly when cookware went from bottom gated castings to side gated.  Griswold started from the beginning as far as I know using the side gating technique as did Wagner and Sidney Hollow Ware.  Griswold was the earliest of those companies and started making iron cookware in???????.   Been trying to find that out.  My best guess is 1879 or 1880 since waffle irons were a popular item and Griswold had patented a waffle iron in 1880.  A few of these irons exist with "Pat. Appl'd For" on them so they predate the patent by a few months which could push them back to 1879.  By 1883 Griswold had a full line of iron cookware.  Other foundries may have continued using the bottom gating process for some time after Griswold was using the newer method.  I don't think there is any way to tell when different foundries changed over to side gating.  

If you look at a number of 1920 patent Griswold dutch ovens (bottoms) you will see some that have a side gate down near the bottom of the side (and lots of rough grinding in that area all around the pot) of the pot while others are smoothly cast in that area and are top gated.  I don't know if the side gated do's also have a gate or more at the top edge also.

c.1890 might be a good date to use in general for change from bottom to top gate.

Steve

[Mike Bohannon]

Steve- on pages 71 and 72 of the Blue Book  are couple of kettles with bottom gates.  Do you think these are a couple of exceptions for Griswold or not Griswold at all.  I had one of the ones on page71 in my hands and saw the bottom gate and passed.  Later saw the pic in the Book.  It was gone when I returned to check again.  Mike

[Steve_Stephens]

Though quite rare, Griswold did make some bottom gated pieces like the two kettles you mention in the blue book.  I was surprised last year at a flea market when I came across a Griswold tea kettle with bottom gate.  This pot had a slant/E trademark which is getting pretty late for a bottom gate.  Of course, if it were a pit bottom kettle the pit bottom would reside down inside the firebox so there would be little advantage to having a smoother bottom with top gating.  Don't remember if the ham boiler is bottom gated.  Any other pieces that are genuine Griswold with bottom gates that anyone can come up with?

Steve